At the 19th London Human Rights Watch Film festival, film-maker Beth Murphy and senior women's rights researcher for Human Rights Watch, Heather Barr, attended the second UK screening of 'What Tomorrow Brings' to engage in a Q&A session with the audience to take questions on the film and issue in hand.
Q:
Could you tell us a little bit about the background of the film and how it came
to be?
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| beyondthebike.kintera.org |
Beth: So I first met Razia Jan when I was filming another documentary
that had a big focus in Afghanistan. That film was titled, ‘Beyond Belief’, and
it was the story of two Sept 11th widows, in America. They were both
pregnant on 9/11 and their husbands were each in one of the two planes that were
flown into the World Trade Centre towers. After they went through that tragedy,
they found each and they started to learn about life in Afghanistan and they
couldn’t believe that really America was embarking on a policy that would
create more widows in that country. And they learned about what life was like for
widows there and there it’s kind of the beginning of the end. They felt
actually that they were lucky, if I can use that word, as widows because
although they had this horrible tragedy, their lives pretty much remained the
same. The kids stayed in the same school, there was life insurance, they stayed
in the same home and when a woman becomes a widow in Afghanistan, it’s kind of
the beginning of the end, it’s the unraveling of the entire life. And if she
would want to get remarried, often times that would require her leaving the
children with the dead husband’s family, so with her in-laws. So it’s really
often why a lot of times you see the widow marrying a brother-in-law so she
stays within that same family. But there’s really, there’s no support network.
So, these two American women decided they wanted to help widows in Afghanistan
and the way that they raised a large amount of money to do that, is that they
made a bike ride from ground zero, New York, back to Boston where they live. So
I filmed that bike ride that they did and when they returned to Boston, they
had a lot of people waiting for them and cheering them on and there to
celebrate with them. And Razia Jan was one of those people. And that was the
day that I met her. That was on the 5th anniversary of September 11th.
Q:
Could you give us a little update on the school and the students featured,
particularly Pashtana?
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Beth: So I realise it’s a little unclear how she gets back to school, so
she’s not allowed to go by the family but then there she is having this
conversation with Zia in the principal’s office. So she, actually her father
who had been pretty opposed to her going to school has really had an about-face
and he’s been very supportive recently about her going to school. There was a lot
of pressure from other family members, so she mentioned the uncle. In Rahila’s
case eve, her father doesn’t really care if she wears the Burkha or not but her
uncle has insisted that that happens. So many men in the girls’ lives can weigh
in and put these different pressures on, and force them to do things. So Pashtana,
she has two sisters all of whom are in school and doing well. She graduated 15th
in her class out of about 35 girls. So you know she’s right there in the middle
and moving ahead. Rahila unfortunately is out of school. Her timeline may seem
a little bit confusing in the film, I don’t know how you found that, because
one minute she’s 18 in fifth grade and then she’s 23 Razia says and then her
friend says, ‘we’re going be in 11th grade next year’ and that’s
because all those years have passed. When she was in 10th grade, her
father took the young wife, so that’s the year which all of that happened. So,
she’s had this really back and forth, with going to schools and right now unfortunately
it looks like she will be home for good. It’s really unusual the fact that she
was 23 years old and in the school in 10th grade, moving into 11th
grade, it’s pretty remarkable that she hasn’t been engaged yet. Sadly it looks
like she probably won’t graduate. The first graduation is happening this
November which is really exciting.
Q:
On the subject of marriage, what does the future look like for these girls
after school?
Heather: Well, first of all thank you so much, it’s such a great film. I
feel like child marriage and forced marriage is sort of a theme running through
a lot of it. It reminded me a little bit of the first week I was in
Afghanistan. I lived in Afghanistan for 6 years and the first week that I was
there I was working for the United Nations and the group of Afghan women in
same unit I was working in, they said ‘come and have lunch with us’. I think
there were four of them and we sat at a table in the cafeteria and I’d already
told them that I was divorced and they sort of smiled and said, ‘oh you’re so
lucky’. And then they went around the table and then one at a time they told me
about their marriages, and these were very educated urban elite women. Some of
them had master’s degrees from overseas universities and studied in the UK. And
they all said the same thing, they said ‘you have to understand, our marriages
were not arranged, our marriages were forced’.
One of the other women that I worked with
in that office, she was actually my boss, very educated woman, very, very smart.
She was the most senior Afghan woman working for the UN in Afghanistan at the
time and her story was that she had resisted for years marrying a cousin who
she didn’t want to marry, who her father wanted her to marry. Her mother had
said to her, ‘well find someone you want to marry and tell me who it is and
I’ll try and arrange it’, but she didn’t really want to get married so she
never found anyone that she wanted to marry. She had come back to Afghanistan
after 2001 after the fall of the Taliban, her family were still in Pakistan
where they’d been refuges, and she went back to visit her family in Pakistan
and when she arrived, the house was all decorated. She said, ‘what’s happening’
and they said, ‘oh we’re having some people over’ and then one of her female
cousins said, ‘let’s go out and buy new dresses’. So they went and bought new
dresses and came back and were changing into their dresses when her mother came
in and said, ‘this is your engagement party’.
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| afghanistannow.wordpress.com |
BETH So on the subject of the themes of the film, forced marriage and
second wives, let me say one more thing.
There’s a female parliamentarian, Shukria
Barakzai who I met actually, during the filming of the other documentary, back
in 2006. Just a really elite family, very, very wealthy family, she’d been
educated outside of the country. She and her husband, it was not an arranged
marriage they fell in love and they had
ultimately what is a very unusual story in the country and they both ran for
office and she won, he lost. Then she was invited by President Karzai to go to
Germany, and they had a group of parliamentarians who were helping to rewrite
the constitution and she was one of those people that went as part of that
group. When she came home, her husband had taken a second wife. To see, if
that’s where it’s happening in society, the people who are living at the top, those at a lesser level and below,
just don’t have a chance.
Heather: Just to add, Shukria is someone I know well too, but I mean her
story is – I mean we’ll talk a little later about the state of women’s rights
in Afghanistan – but Shukria is an illustration of one of the things that is
really alarming which is that women have risen to these heights and gotten
involved in public life and are in a lot of danger. Shukria survived a bombing,
a car bombing about 6 months ago. So she’s alive still but she was wounded and
is recovering.
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Q: When
Western governments are facing criticism for their intervention, they’ll often
say well look at the advances in education, a lot of that is down to us. How
far is that valid, and how far is the movement self-generated in Afghanistan?
Secondly, while the Taliban has gained some footholds around claims that the
governments are working more for one section of the Muslim community and less
for the other. How is that reflected in your experiences of how children are
treated at school? Are some given more of a chance than others?
Beth: Maybe a combination. I mean I would just say that without foreign
dollars the educational system would not have been possible, to build it as
much as it has been built up. But there’s a huge difference between having a
school and having a good education, so there’s a massive disparity there. Also
a number of districts, there are dozens and dozens of districts where there are
no educational opportunities at all. There are no schools that exist. And this
is true for boys and girls. The quality of the education in most cases is very,
very poor. The case with this school is that it is the only free private
education in the country actually. So, on all of the dollars, for this
particular school are coming from the US and support from donors there. But the
amount of money that USA ID has pumped into rebuilding schools in the country,
it might seem like a lot of money but compared to the overall dollars that have
been spent, there’s just so much corruption that so many of the foreign dollars
are going places that they shouldn’t. So the infrastructure is kind of
collapsing around them.
Heather: On the sectarian issue, Afghanistan is quite different to Pakistan where
you see such sectarian conflict. In Afghanistan it really tends to break down
along ethnic lines rather than along Sunni/Shi’a lines. Of course, ethnicity in
some cases is linked to religion but I think the inequalities in terms of how
money is spent in Afghanistan have largely been created by foreigners and we
see that in a sense that when the international forces came in they divided the
country up into different areas controlled by different militaries. Some of
those militaries had a lot of money to spend in that area and some didn’t.
There was real focus on parts of the country that were particularly volatile
and where there was a lot of conflict with the consequence, that some areas
that were very, very peaceful got very, very little aid in comparison.
When I was working for the UN, we had a
project in a place called Ghor province and the provincial reconstruction team,
the military that was responsible for Ghor province, was Lithuania. Colleagues
of mine, they’d come back from Ghor and would say, ‘oh, the governor said again
why can’t we have a real army’. So you ended up with a very illogical patchwork
because of those kinds of military driven decisions.
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About the questions about has America
brought women’s rights to Afghanistan. You know, I was living in New York in
9/11 and I went to a peace rally on Sept 14th, in union square. And
I think we all knew already that someone was going to get bombed, we just
weren’t quite clear yet on who it was going to be. So, it was funny to go from
protesting for peace 4 days after 9/11 to spending 6 years in Afghanistan. I think it’s very hard to look back and say
what would have happened in Afghanistan if 9/11 hadn’t happened, if the
international invasion hadn’t happened. I don’t think there’s any way to know.
But I think that, maybe people would have risen up, the Taliban would have been
toppled in a sort of organic way. There’s no way to know but regardless of what
you think about whether military intervention was a good idea or not, I think
there’s a very powerful argument about both, ‘you broke it, you fix it’ and
also, ‘you made a lot of promises and you used Afghan women, these pictures of
Afghan workers to justify intervention and so, now you better not pack up your
things and leave and forget about them and forget about the promises that you
made’. Girls education and everything else that supports women’s rights is
really in danger at this moment because the UK government, the US government,
everyone’s really tired of Afghanistan and wrapping up and running for the door
and there’s lots of other things going on globally that obviously are taking
people’s attention away. One of our real messages over the last couple of years
has been, ‘you’re not done, you’re not done’. And it makes a huge difference. I
mean Afghan women, Afghan girls, they need money to keep the schools open but
they also need political pressure on the government because the government of
Afghanistan, the old, the new, doesn’t matter which one, will not be pushing
forward with supporting women’s rights without international pressure.
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| indiatoday.intoday.in |
Q:
Can I ask what’s happening in relation to educating boys about women’s rights
in schools? One of the things that really strikes me, as a nominal Muslim and a
woman, it’s not just the case that studying is not a sin, in Islam it is the
case that if you have the means to educate only one child and you have a boy
and a girl, the religion actually says you educate the girl because logically
the man goes out to work, the education stops with him. If you educate the
girl, she becomes a mother, there’s a chance the education gets passed down.
You wouldn’t know that in the Muslim world that, that is actually what the
religion says. So I’m curious, as to what is happening to educate boys, about a
girl’s right to education.
Beth: I mean I think that that’s starting in the home. It’s not like
there’s a programme that exists in their more formal education to do that and
again, the educational opportunities for boys, similarly for girls who are
going to public schools, where they’re going for 2-3 hours a day and they’re
going in shifts and they don’t have enough chairs and desks and books and
pencils. I mean they’re sharing books and studying in a tent and there’s really
just huge challenges. They’re barely getting the basics of reading, math and
science, never mind human rights, women’s rights training. But I think where it
can be really powerful and where I’ve seen it – you know, my experience is
limited to the village in terms of what I’ve actually witnessed – but in Deh
Subz, the men in the community are so supportive of the school. Especially, the
boys who are in the home, in the family, in many cases they’ve seen the
transition, they’ve seen the fathers who were against the school, didn’t want
it to be built. Then when it was built, fighting to have it be a boy’s school
and then that fight was lost. And they see that, they’ve seen their sisters
coming home from school and knowing how to read and write, sometimes better
than they can because their education is more superior here. So, that’s
happening and in such an organic way, it’s really incredible. I’ve heard this
really most amazing interview, with the documentary film-maker who did ‘India’s
daughter’. The sentiment that she expressed really applies here when she said,
that people say that life would be better if we caught the bad apples, the ones
who carried out this horrific rape and sentenced them to death. She said, ‘well
it’s not as simple as they’re just a few bad apples in the barrel. The whole
barrel is rotten’. It’s kind of like that in Afghanistan. If the boys are
growing up seeing that the girls are the last to eat, or they don’t get
anything if the food has run out. They’re the ones who don’t get to go to
school and doing all the work. I mean, that’s what they grow up with. How can
you expect them to behave any differently than the previous generation? So you
know, in cases like this where the boys are seeing something very different
happening in their home, is the beginning of the mindset change.
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Q:
Can you tell us a bit about the background of Razia Jan, and how she was able
to start the school and the means she had to build it? It sounds like she
really pushed forward and got it done and I was really curious as to how that
came about.
Beth: So Razia was, she grew up in Kandahar and she was visiting the US
because her brother was studying at MIT when she was much younger. When she was
in the US, in Boston visiting him, that’s when Russia invaded Afghanistan and
her family told her that she really shouldn’t/couldn’t come back home. So as
the years dragged on, she’d keep asking and the answer was always no. She ended
up building a life for herself in and around the Boston area. She got married,
had a son, started a small tailoring business and her husband sadly died when
her son was 2. She continued raising him as a single mum throughout, she never
remarried or had a relationship again and just worked really hard at her
tailoring business and focusing on raising her son. It was when 9/11 happened,
that she just became so overwhelmed by the response. She wasn’t sure what was
going to happen, and what any kind of backlash might be in her community,
towards her and towards her business because we’ve all heard of cases where
there were negative things happening, that people were attacking Muslim
businesses. Instead what she got was really an outpouring of support and love
and she was very connected in her community, had been a rotarian for many, many
years, at that point. What she saw around 9/11, she became very supportive of
the emergency workers. For example she heard they might need blankets, so she
made a lot of blankets. She made an enormous American flag that had the names
on it, of all the victims.
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So these are the kinds of things that she
was inspired to do at that time and then she decided that she wanted to go back
home to Afghanistan and do something back home but she wasn’t quite sure what
that would be. At one point she collected like 30,000 pairs of shoes and those
were distributed. She was working pretty closely with the US military actually,
at that time to bring supplies over. She went over herself finally and she
became focused on working in some orphanages and it was in the orphanages that
she saw and was so shocked by the difference between the way that girls and
boys were treated in society. It was so different to what she had experienced
and seen growing up in the country. It was a country that she felt she no
longer recognized. She was in an
orphanage one day and she saw that there were toys that were being taken away
from the girls and given to the boys so that they could play. That was the
moment that she decided that she really wanted to focus on girls and the she
really wanted to focus on education, believing as we all probably do, that if
you can educate a generation and change, you can change a generation. So it was
an initial gift from rotary, her local rotary club, of 30,000 dollars that was
the seed money for building the school and then later, she started a foundation
called, ‘Razia’s Ray of Hope Foundation’. That foundation is now the support
foundation for the school. She also very recently, well 2yrs ago, she was named
a top 10 CNN hero, and all the top tens receive a good chunk of money and have
the opportunity to organize a lot of fundraising activities around that. It’s a
huge infrastructure that CNN has to do that. Most of the people who are
nominated have some connection to a non-profit organization and they get a lot
of support to help them grow and set out their strategic plan for 5, 10 and 15yrs and so through that they
were able to raise a lot of money and that was the money that was used to
build the third floor.
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Host: You know, she’s so brave with what she’s doing, and clearly it’s
not 100% safe. Lots of people go out to attack the school. I was wondering if
you could share a little about the global campaign that you’ve been working on.
Heather: That scene in the film where they’re talking about, ‘what if the
Taliban comes’. You (Beth) explained last night that part of the reason they
wanted to windows high is because they were imagining how much more dangerous
it would be for them if the Taliban took over the school and the windows were
lower. That might seem like a crazy thing to worry about but Human Rights Watch
actually co-ordinates a thing called, ‘protect education from attack’ and
there’s some information in the brochure. The reason that campaign exists is
because what often happens in a situation where you have conflict, and soldiers
coming into a community who haven’t been there before, whether they’re
anti-government soldiers or government soldiers. They’ll arrive in the village
and they’ll take new ground and ask where are we going to base ourselves? We
need a building that’s sturdy and secure and has a good vantage point and often
that’s the school. So we see a lot of situations in a lot of countries were
there’s an ongoing conflict where soldiers have actually based themselves in
schools and that’s really endangered students. Sometimes it just disrupts their
education and they can’t study at all, sometimes it makes them vulnerable to
sexual exploitation or to recruitment and all types of problems so we’re really
trying to advocate for special attention to protecting schools during conflict.
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Q: I
understand that Razia is a good mediator but she is still limited. What’s the
protocol if a child discloses abuse or violence at home, like we saw in the
film?
Beth: You know things have changed quite dramatically during the course
of the filming. It used to be that when a girl was absent from school,
regardless of the reason, it could just be doing housework, she had to cook and
clean, having relatives in, you name the problem. To the more extreme
situations. That, Razia would go and Zia would also go and they would fight
really hard to get the girls back in school. I mean really hard, they would go
time and time again, offer things to the family. Say well, if it’s because
you’re experiencing such economic hardship that you really need the help of the
girls, maybe we can help. We can bring you food each month, maybe a little bit
of money, some fabric for clothing if it was too much to clothe them to go to
school, or if they need shoes or a winter coat. They still do some of those
things, I mean any girl who needs a winter coat, will be given one by Razia and
the teachers. Shoes, the same thing. Clothes, the same thing. Food, often
times. But what they found was that they were starting to create friction in
the community by fighting. If the family were saying, ‘no, we don’t want the
girls to go’, it was becoming the harder they fought, the more problems that
they might be creating. And Razia, she said at one point, ‘by saving one we can
lose a lot’.
So the situation with Rahila for example,
she has three other sisters who are in the school and they were really pushing
hard to get her back. They knew, they knew what was going on when it was going
on but they pretended not to. They would contact the father, so he knew that
they cared about her and that they were going to keep checking in and that they
were there as a support. Just that someone was out there watching out for her.
But they never confronted him directly. They made that decision based on
previous interactions when she’d been in and out of school, and the fear that,
if they fight so hard to get her back, not only will they not get her back
anyway, but that he’ll pull the three other daughters from the school. Having
someone like him, in such a powerful position, who is sending his daughters and
is showing support, for the school, that would be a crushing blow if he were to
turn against the school. You can envision that a lot of others would also be
turned against the school.
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| epacha.org |
So the protocol really has changed. Razia
says in the film, ‘I know my limits’ and the girls, they know their limits too.
She’s kind of had to redefine her limits over the years and what she did the
first couple of years in the school is not what she does today. I also wanted
to just add something. I mentioned that she was working very closely early-on
with the US military. In the first couple of years of the school opening, the
US military would come and visit the school and it was this really great
fanfare and it was really exciting and they’d distribute a lot of supplies.
That’s something that got that realization of ‘oh my gosh, I could be putting
the school in really great danger by showing any kind of affiliation with the
US military in particular’. So that was stopped as well and there was
definitely some worry about what that could mean for the school and the support
from the village elders.
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| raziasrayofhope,org |
Q:
Just before we finish up, where can we find out more, are there things that you
would recommend looking at?
Beth: So we’re looking to have the premiere of the final, final film, in
the fall. We’ll be rolling out, so it will be about a year on the festival
circuit around the world and then it will start airing on television. We’ll be
rolling out an impact campaign with the film, starting in June. And the dream,
Razia’s dream is, to build a centre for higher education because most of the
girls graduating won’t be able to go on to college. So, since they can’t go to
it, Razia wants to bring it to them and so that will be the focus of our impact
campaign with the film: to build really what will be the first ever college in
a rural Afghan village.
Heather: Well, take a look at the information on the brochure about the
global campaign. Obviously you can support Razia’s foundation if you want. The
most important thing I would say is, tell your politicians, that they haven’t
solved everything in Afghanistan you know. Enough patting themselves on the
back and I know there’s an election coming up here. I don’t imagine Afghanistan
is going to be much of an issue in the election…
Audience
Member: We’ve just had a church service at St. Paul’s
to celebrate the pulling out of all our troops…
Heather: …Don’t get me started. I mean George Bush wins for most
embarrassing victory moment ever but your politicians aren’t THAT far behind.
So yeh, to the extent that you’re involved in politics and watching what your
government does. Remind them that declaring victory and that they solved all
the problems of women’s rights in Afghanistan, is somewhat untrue.
Q: How long were you there and where did
you stay?
Beth: So, I stayed in Kabul actually, at Razia’s
house, she has a home there now. I mean I was there for a couple of months at a
time usually. So we were driving in and out. I’d go sometimes in the teacher
van, sometimes Zia would drive. Sometimes Razia would drive which was always
fascinating because she was like the 30th woman in Kabul to get a
driver’s licence, so a lot of stares. Very unusual to see a woman driver. So we
went back and forth, I didn’t stay in the village although I always wanted to.
I don’t think it would be possible but I would love to go and live at Rahila’s
house for like a year. It was pretty comfortable I mean, bare bones but
comfortable.
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| principlepictures.com |
Q: Did you being American ever help or
hinder what you were trying to film?
Beth: I mean, I was always very covered and there
was no walking about or anything like that. Everything we did kind of happened
behind closed doors and you’d get in the car and behind the gate and then you
know, you could be out. I always travelled in local, beat-up kind of cars,
without drawing attention.
Also it’s an environment where you’re so
used to seeing foreigners actually, there’s so many foreigners in the country,
particularly in Kabul. I don’t know, there’s always so much uncertainty. For
all the people who are happy to have the troops there, and happy for Americans
to be there, there are a number of people who really hate us. I just didn’t
want to do anything to step on toes. So you never know. For example, there’s a
restaurant we’d go to all the time a [Lebanese] restaurant, and it was recently
bombed. There’s just like no safe place, you never know what can happen at any
time. But it was a nice environment in which to stay. I had stayed once, a long
time ago, I’d stayed at a guest house and I really liked being able to stay at
a home.
