9999_Trailer English from Associate Directors on Vimeo.
This documentary by Ellen Vermeulen granted fantastic access to one of the most timeless places on Earth. Where the only thing to do each day is watch shadows disappear from the wall and listen to the slow knocking of pipes. It is tragic, to see so many people unsure of their futures. Unsure of their present. They are granted no access to psychiatric help, no proper advice or control of medication and essentially left to be forgotten about in prison until either they kill themselves or die naturally. These men have made mistakes, but Vermeulen's characters are remorseful and it is heart-breaking to watch as they sit confined to their tiny rooms, that have become their only world, as their mental health and emotions fluctuate. One man explains the story of how he came to be here. He had done wrong and was scared that his father would send him to prison for fear that he would be admitted to a prison like Merksplas and left to rot, so he attacks him and leaves him for dead. He powerfully states, 'because I wanted to keep my life, I lost my life'. He knows he did wrong and he has had many years to confront this decision.
Another young man was trying to seek help for his mental health but being turned away from a clinic, he set fire to a bike to get attention. He did not receive the help he was seeking, instead he was incarcerated and has been in prison without therapy for 8 years.
The Human Rights Commission condemns the Belgian government by serving fines to them. The government merely pays the fine for the breach in human rights, and continues, business as usual, whilst approx 900 people remain in prison, without a release date.
After the showing of this incredible documentary, we were treated to a Q&A with director Ellen Vermeulen. Here's what happened:
Aud: A really powerful film with amazing access.
It's only afterwards when the media said to me, this is really absurd that you can make this, that I realise this is maybe strange, that they allow me.
Aud: So it was a challenge? You knew it was a challenge to try and make this film?
Dir: I think the challenge was not that much, how to make this film but how to be honest with what I saw and to capture this kind of, their lives. What will I show to show how their life is? I think that was the most difficult thing.
Aud: Could you tell us a little bit about how you made, why you chose to make the film as you did in the sense of locking off the camera, filming people mostly as they're doing things and keeping most of the, well keeping the interviews off camera.
Dir: Yeh, very important moment was when, to find funding I had to shoot a trailer so I filmed myself. Afterwards I worked with a cameraman so I filmed myself. And as I was very close to my characters I filmed like very close and when i looked at it I felt bad because it was, you know a very famous dutch film-maker says 'when you have poor children with a little dirt on their mouth you feel sad for them', you feel it's like exotic and I didn't want to do that. I wanted to respect them and show them in their strength. This is one thing. but also you want to film the space. I am not a filmmaker with lots of words, I want to show. So my idea was I want to make this film and if you turn off the sound you can also see the film. But before I worked for one year and a half doing research. So the moment I filmed it was very obvious what I wanted to film, I only shot for 4 days. So I did research for one year and a half and filmed for four days. I knew how they would react when something was happening. There was one moment there was a fight between one of the prisoners and the guard. And I thought I cannot film this because if I film this I have to show tomorrow, this relationship with this guard and my film is not about that, my film is about the timelessness of their being. So, it was all very clear and that's why I think the shooting was very strict, very obvious for me.
Aud: Did you actually film the interviews or just record the sound?
Dir: Both. there are some interviews I did before I recorded them myself when I was alone.
Aud: And so the period of research, you worked without a camera did you?
Dir: Yeh, I only want to film when I'm tired of talking. The characters also said finished, stop.
Aud: Stop the research?
Dir: We were tired talking to each other I new every spot on the wall I knew everything. I had been there for so many times so long time and I had to film. I was so upset I had to film, I had to film something with what I saw.
Aud: Have they seen the film?
Dir: Sure. They have seen it I think three times and they were really also tired of it. Yeh but it's very important because it was screened on telvsion twice in belgium and I was so afraid. They are in this little room alone and they look at television and they see themselves and this is so difficult for them. So I wanted to make sure that they knew everythign by heart. They had to know it so good because one day they are good, the next day they can be ill. And I wanted to show the film in every stage of their, every stage as much as possible.
Aud: So you also made a decision not to film, or put in the film, any sequences where they were less in control of their lives. Less well?
Dir: These are the moments that I'm not going to film because I'm there with them and there is something happening I am not a film-maker. I'm not the kind of film-maker who wants to film err, this in my reality. I didn't put the camera for 24hrs. It's the way I see their lives and it's a confusion maybe. Of course there are moments when you really see that they are ill. It's hard to film and I'm not going to show them in their weakest moment. But, I think you can feel that there is something happening with them so I wanted to give the feeling and not show everything. A judge said to me, if you see the film you can realise how much worse it is in reality and I think he's right. This is very, ok. Their life is good when you see this film. In reality it's much worse.
Aud: There were a couple of moments in the film, when people address you. Was that, were you questioning him. Or did he know he wanted to make a statement?
Dir: Yeh he wanted to make a statement and it's also about who is watching who. You are watching him all the time and I think at one moment he's like, I'm like a character in a fiction film, but he's playing with that all the time. When I entered his room he always had something for me, like I'm from the mafia. He was addressing, always symbolic to me and I think this moment is a very important moment because as a spectator you are confronted with your position of watching them and being on the outside. I was not asking anything I think this is the moment that lots of people would cut, I was just like not watching him coz I don't want him to react to me.
Aud: You say the film has been shown on TV, judges have watched it. Has the film had any impact, any debate at least?
Dir: Yeh. Things are changing. I'm not going to say it's completely because of the film but I think this film also had an impact. I showed this film for example in the European Court of Human Rights and that's very nice because lots of judges said to me, we are reading these files and now for the first time we see faces. It's like the same with judges, they say we send people to prison and now, we see what's happening in prison. The European Court is judging individuals and one month after this film, they judged the complete, they gave a fine to Belgium for everybody, not only individual anymore. So, this maybe the film, and also there is one of these guys not in my film but one of these guys who asked for euthanasia, to end his life, so it was a huge thing in Europe and it was shameful for Belgium. I think these things are, helping to change, because they now have a building for 200 people, and there are now 800-900 left. Also what is strange is that some months after the first screening, the characters were put in psychiatry, after 16yrs, 15yrs of prison, something - I don't say it's my film. but I say, it's strange.
Aud: All your 5 characters got therapy?
Dir: Yes. Very strange. Yeh, you say applause but for me it's hard because then I should have made a film about 1100 people. It's very sad that I chose them and not others.
Aud: Why did you choose those 5 people?
Dir: Very early I wanted to film them. Four of them didn't want to be int eh film, they said no I don't want to be filmed. I think so many other people asked, can I please be in your film but they are very angry and they shout at the guard and they say, it's all their fault, no it's not. And also I wanted people to have, they have to know that they did something wrong. I met people who were proud of what they did and that was very difficult. I have to like my characters. And very early in my process I decided I wanted to film them. Like Wilfried, everybody said to me, the guards, they said 'don't talk to him, he will play with you, he will play games' and for one year and a half he has played games. he has teased me, he has offended me, he has attacked me. there was one, in my head I think there was a changing point. I was in his room and I touched the door and it closes and I couldn't go out anymore. I think I was there for 15minutes. He said to me, 'now you are depending on me, I can do whatever I want, you have to trust me'. And I was really relaxed, I am happy for that and I said 'Wilfried I totally trust you' and this was the first time I could show it to him. And I think from that moment on he had a different way of reacting to me. There were some moments he shouted at me and I never panicked, I said 'you're right', I also shout. So I thin that made him like 'ok she comes back every week, she doesn't hate me for that'. So it has been a long process.
Aud: So you talk about 8months research. Were you there once a week?
Dir: Yeh. I was there once a week, a whole day that was enough. It was not funny time, it was horrible to be there. I could not explain to anybody what is happening and now I have the feeling I can show it with this film. there was one nice thing in the European court also, there was a woman from I think Latvia and she cried and said, 'for years I am trying to explain to people what is happening and now I don't have to explain any more'. This is, it's impossible to explain, these people, whats happening. It's impossible for them to live in this way.
Aud: Do you think that in the time you were there that they found the therapy they were lacking, through you?
Dir: Yeh, I think. I think, it's also very hard to know, they only see two kinds of people; people who judge them for what they did, like criminals and people who treat them like mentally ill people who are, who have to be treated. And I was I think the only person in their, in a long time, who was just there not judging them, not saying you are ill. I just talked to them like human beings and I think that was very nice but also very hard when I left I think. When I left I was very emotional and they were like, (happily) 'bye-bye'.
Aud: You say you wrote it, I just wondered how you call yourself a writer when this is a documentary?
Dir: Oh but this is a very directed film.
Aud: The writing aspect?
Dir: Yeh I wrote every scene, I. It's not I know this will happen but I know this is what I'm searching for. After so many times of being there i know when I do this, how they will react so I knew for example, every scene has to have timelessness. There can be no chronology. so, the only moment there is someone saying something, is the moment the boy leaves the prison. The rest of the film is built without scenes of chronology. Even inside the scenes. this was very important for me, to write scenes that have this timelessness. So, when I make a film I know exactly what I want and I write everything down so this is a very directed film. I put people there and I say. There is one scene that I didn't know and I don't like it at all, this scene. But it was very hot in Belgium, this bit on medication. This was the first news, there was big news in Belgium, and this is the scene I really don't like and I didn't want to put in the film because it has something 'now', somebody is coming inside the room and this is not. It's very concrete what's happening there.
Aud: When they're discussing when he's going to take his medicine, today, tomorrow?
Dir: And also it was not presented, I didn't know, it was out of my control. So when this guard was coming in I was like shit, my morning scene is gone. And then, we kept on filming and then afterwards I saw that it was very hard to see because this was against the law but I really fought against my editor because I didn't want to have it in the film.
Aud: When you say it's hard to see because it's against the norm, what do you mean?
Dir: Somebody who is mentally ill in prison has to have the same treatment as somebody outside the prison, but then you see no, they have to be responsible for their own medication. So there is a doctor, a psychiatrist that says you have to take your medication. Wilfried is collecting all his pills and sometimes he says 'I'm going to kill myself one day so I collect them, it's my only freedom'. Sometimes he puts them in his toilet and he says 'eat', 'bon a petit, have a nice meal' to his toilet.
Aud: I have a question about the environment. I was amazed to see they were locked in with glass glazed doors, and was wondering about the safety aspect of that. In prison here, those safety things would never be allowed, like the stack of chairs in another scene, that could be used as weapons.
Dir: It's a very old prison, it's good for my film of course. In a very modern hospital it could be different. When I was there were some moments when there were a lot of guards who had to attack somebody who was aggressive but er, I cannot really answer your question, because they have never attacked me.
Aud: In a British prison there'd be no glass.
Dir: Wilfried says that they will happy if I kill myself coz they have the room for somebody else, and I think he's right. Nobody takes care of them, they don't mind. So I can just say that, if somebody kills themselves - next one.
Aud: When you showed the film, was there any sense from the people running the prison that this was actually, there was something shocking here.
Dir: I made one decision that was, when you make a film people have to sign a contract. I accept that I'm in your film etc. I said to them you have to sign this contract when you have seen the film and you like it, otherwise you don't sign it. They don't have any rights, they don't have any control in their lives, I said to them I give you back something which was a huge risk for me as well because they have their strange moments as well, so I was a little bit afraid. Also with the prison itself I said to them only afterwards you have to sign and if you don't like it...but I'm not somebody who will offend the prison itself. So I show them the film, to the prisoners and nobody, they were sad to see themselves. One said, I am sad but this one is very bad, I'm ok. So it's funny to see how they react on their neighbours. And the head of the prison itself, said it's shocking but it's reality so we cannot say anything. The head of the prison was at my screening and she took the mic and she talked to the audience which was also very nice. They said, we don't like what's happening, we hope something will change.
Aud: Has anyone tried to escape?
Dir: there was one very strange moment, I made jokes about it when I was there. I said 'next time I'll bring white sheets and I'll help you escape' but no. There was one very strange moment with Wilfried, he said to me, 'this weekend you have to watch the news because somebody will be killed who is responsible for my situation, so you have to watch the news'. And then I didn't, it was very difficult for me to decide what to do because I cannot be responsible for this. I was quite sure that he would not do that but if I would share it with somebody and he knows it, then I would lose his trust. So, it happened that people said things to me, where I had to make some ethical decisions. But nobody, no, they are too weak to escape I think. They can't run.
Aud: When you say they can't run, do mean in a state of mind where they can't escape or physically unable to run? Is it the medicine?
Dir: You have seen Salem in the film, the French speaking man, that says 'I'm lost'? This man, I knew he was between 9-10 o'clock in the morning I could a little bit, we could communicate a little bit. And then it finished for the rest of the day he's sleeping, it's impossible to really talk to him. So after the film one month after the film, after shooting the film, I visited him again and maybe at 2 o'clock he was very ok, and I said 'what's happening with you Salem, it's very nice to talk but what's happening'. He said, 'I don't know, they changed my medication'. So maybe he's there 8yrs, so maybe for 8 years he had been like this, and somebody decides we'll try something else and, he woke up. They don't have anybody to defend them so they are, completely lost.
Aud: Did your research include talking to psychiatrists to see how they SHOULD be treated?
Dir: Yes but limited. Because I really decided to show their situation from inside and I thought I don't really know the situation with law and so on. Once I talked to them, I decide now I have to shut myself off from the outside world. Of course before I could talk to them, and spoke to the guards and the people around them. So I talked a lot to them in the beginning. I had to be positive about this film because, the day I said to Wilfried a little bit from outside, I said 'I will start filming', he said 'oh you cannot'. After one year and a half he said, 'no, forget it'. And I stayed calm and I said ,'ok I'll find somebody else'. And he said 'no, no, no film us'.
Aud: how come you chose not to interview the guards?
Dir: I'm not interested int their situation. My film is about them. Every information has to be. I'm not a journalist, I hate objective films, I hate it. I want to make subjective films and I don't want if somebody says, if somebody gives an a, somebody has to give a b - no, I'm not interested in that. It's the spectator who has to make their own story and there are so many.. I'm not interested at all in showing the opinion of everybody.
Aud: Comment on the sound scape. Was it almost all, filmed in the room?
Dir: A little bit composing but the challenge was, how can we reduce the sound because in reality, there is so much sound and so we had to put filters on it to reduce the sound. And so we decided, me and the editor decided, to put some details on it, to make it there. You don't want to be in a bath of sound, you want some little points to point out some feelings. Like the toilet, the water in the pipes, this is re-constructed. it's impossible, you stand there with the mic, it's not always reality but I'm sure it's like... And sometimes I wanted to have this effect of being in their head.
It's only afterwards when the media said to me, this is really absurd that you can make this, that I realise this is maybe strange, that they allow me.
Aud: So it was a challenge? You knew it was a challenge to try and make this film?
Dir: I think the challenge was not that much, how to make this film but how to be honest with what I saw and to capture this kind of, their lives. What will I show to show how their life is? I think that was the most difficult thing.
Aud: Could you tell us a little bit about how you made, why you chose to make the film as you did in the sense of locking off the camera, filming people mostly as they're doing things and keeping most of the, well keeping the interviews off camera.
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| 9999themovie.com |
Aud: Did you actually film the interviews or just record the sound?
Dir: Both. there are some interviews I did before I recorded them myself when I was alone.
Aud: And so the period of research, you worked without a camera did you?
Dir: Yeh, I only want to film when I'm tired of talking. The characters also said finished, stop.
Aud: Stop the research?
 |
| moviesthatmatter.nl |
Aud: Have they seen the film?
Dir: Sure. They have seen it I think three times and they were really also tired of it. Yeh but it's very important because it was screened on telvsion twice in belgium and I was so afraid. They are in this little room alone and they look at television and they see themselves and this is so difficult for them. So I wanted to make sure that they knew everythign by heart. They had to know it so good because one day they are good, the next day they can be ill. And I wanted to show the film in every stage of their, every stage as much as possible.
Aud: So you also made a decision not to film, or put in the film, any sequences where they were less in control of their lives. Less well?
Dir: These are the moments that I'm not going to film because I'm there with them and there is something happening I am not a film-maker. I'm not the kind of film-maker who wants to film err, this in my reality. I didn't put the camera for 24hrs. It's the way I see their lives and it's a confusion maybe. Of course there are moments when you really see that they are ill. It's hard to film and I'm not going to show them in their weakest moment. But, I think you can feel that there is something happening with them so I wanted to give the feeling and not show everything. A judge said to me, if you see the film you can realise how much worse it is in reality and I think he's right. This is very, ok. Their life is good when you see this film. In reality it's much worse.
 |
| 9999themovie.com |
Dir: Yeh he wanted to make a statement and it's also about who is watching who. You are watching him all the time and I think at one moment he's like, I'm like a character in a fiction film, but he's playing with that all the time. When I entered his room he always had something for me, like I'm from the mafia. He was addressing, always symbolic to me and I think this moment is a very important moment because as a spectator you are confronted with your position of watching them and being on the outside. I was not asking anything I think this is the moment that lots of people would cut, I was just like not watching him coz I don't want him to react to me.
Aud: You say the film has been shown on TV, judges have watched it. Has the film had any impact, any debate at least?
Dir: Yeh. Things are changing. I'm not going to say it's completely because of the film but I think this film also had an impact. I showed this film for example in the European Court of Human Rights and that's very nice because lots of judges said to me, we are reading these files and now for the first time we see faces. It's like the same with judges, they say we send people to prison and now, we see what's happening in prison. The European Court is judging individuals and one month after this film, they judged the complete, they gave a fine to Belgium for everybody, not only individual anymore. So, this maybe the film, and also there is one of these guys not in my film but one of these guys who asked for euthanasia, to end his life, so it was a huge thing in Europe and it was shameful for Belgium. I think these things are, helping to change, because they now have a building for 200 people, and there are now 800-900 left. Also what is strange is that some months after the first screening, the characters were put in psychiatry, after 16yrs, 15yrs of prison, something - I don't say it's my film. but I say, it's strange.
Aud: All your 5 characters got therapy?
Dir: Yes. Very strange. Yeh, you say applause but for me it's hard because then I should have made a film about 1100 people. It's very sad that I chose them and not others.
Aud: Why did you choose those 5 people?
 |
| cobra.canvas.be |
Aud: So you talk about 8months research. Were you there once a week?
Dir: Yeh. I was there once a week, a whole day that was enough. It was not funny time, it was horrible to be there. I could not explain to anybody what is happening and now I have the feeling I can show it with this film. there was one nice thing in the European court also, there was a woman from I think Latvia and she cried and said, 'for years I am trying to explain to people what is happening and now I don't have to explain any more'. This is, it's impossible to explain, these people, whats happening. It's impossible for them to live in this way.
Aud: Do you think that in the time you were there that they found the therapy they were lacking, through you?
Dir: Yeh, I think. I think, it's also very hard to know, they only see two kinds of people; people who judge them for what they did, like criminals and people who treat them like mentally ill people who are, who have to be treated. And I was I think the only person in their, in a long time, who was just there not judging them, not saying you are ill. I just talked to them like human beings and I think that was very nice but also very hard when I left I think. When I left I was very emotional and they were like, (happily) 'bye-bye'.
Aud: You say you wrote it, I just wondered how you call yourself a writer when this is a documentary?
Dir: Oh but this is a very directed film.
Aud: The writing aspect?
 |
| dailymatters.moviesthatmatter.nl |
Aud: When they're discussing when he's going to take his medicine, today, tomorrow?
Dir: And also it was not presented, I didn't know, it was out of my control. So when this guard was coming in I was like shit, my morning scene is gone. And then, we kept on filming and then afterwards I saw that it was very hard to see because this was against the law but I really fought against my editor because I didn't want to have it in the film.
Aud: When you say it's hard to see because it's against the norm, what do you mean?
Dir: Somebody who is mentally ill in prison has to have the same treatment as somebody outside the prison, but then you see no, they have to be responsible for their own medication. So there is a doctor, a psychiatrist that says you have to take your medication. Wilfried is collecting all his pills and sometimes he says 'I'm going to kill myself one day so I collect them, it's my only freedom'. Sometimes he puts them in his toilet and he says 'eat', 'bon a petit, have a nice meal' to his toilet.
Aud: I have a question about the environment. I was amazed to see they were locked in with glass glazed doors, and was wondering about the safety aspect of that. In prison here, those safety things would never be allowed, like the stack of chairs in another scene, that could be used as weapons.
Dir: It's a very old prison, it's good for my film of course. In a very modern hospital it could be different. When I was there were some moments when there were a lot of guards who had to attack somebody who was aggressive but er, I cannot really answer your question, because they have never attacked me.
Aud: In a British prison there'd be no glass.
Dir: Wilfried says that they will happy if I kill myself coz they have the room for somebody else, and I think he's right. Nobody takes care of them, they don't mind. So I can just say that, if somebody kills themselves - next one.
 |
| physicalimpossibility.com |
Dir: I made one decision that was, when you make a film people have to sign a contract. I accept that I'm in your film etc. I said to them you have to sign this contract when you have seen the film and you like it, otherwise you don't sign it. They don't have any rights, they don't have any control in their lives, I said to them I give you back something which was a huge risk for me as well because they have their strange moments as well, so I was a little bit afraid. Also with the prison itself I said to them only afterwards you have to sign and if you don't like it...but I'm not somebody who will offend the prison itself. So I show them the film, to the prisoners and nobody, they were sad to see themselves. One said, I am sad but this one is very bad, I'm ok. So it's funny to see how they react on their neighbours. And the head of the prison itself, said it's shocking but it's reality so we cannot say anything. The head of the prison was at my screening and she took the mic and she talked to the audience which was also very nice. They said, we don't like what's happening, we hope something will change.
Aud: Has anyone tried to escape?
Dir: there was one very strange moment, I made jokes about it when I was there. I said 'next time I'll bring white sheets and I'll help you escape' but no. There was one very strange moment with Wilfried, he said to me, 'this weekend you have to watch the news because somebody will be killed who is responsible for my situation, so you have to watch the news'. And then I didn't, it was very difficult for me to decide what to do because I cannot be responsible for this. I was quite sure that he would not do that but if I would share it with somebody and he knows it, then I would lose his trust. So, it happened that people said things to me, where I had to make some ethical decisions. But nobody, no, they are too weak to escape I think. They can't run.
Aud: When you say they can't run, do mean in a state of mind where they can't escape or physically unable to run? Is it the medicine?
Dir: You have seen Salem in the film, the French speaking man, that says 'I'm lost'? This man, I knew he was between 9-10 o'clock in the morning I could a little bit, we could communicate a little bit. And then it finished for the rest of the day he's sleeping, it's impossible to really talk to him. So after the film one month after the film, after shooting the film, I visited him again and maybe at 2 o'clock he was very ok, and I said 'what's happening with you Salem, it's very nice to talk but what's happening'. He said, 'I don't know, they changed my medication'. So maybe he's there 8yrs, so maybe for 8 years he had been like this, and somebody decides we'll try something else and, he woke up. They don't have anybody to defend them so they are, completely lost.
 |
| cinergie.be |
Dir: Yes but limited. Because I really decided to show their situation from inside and I thought I don't really know the situation with law and so on. Once I talked to them, I decide now I have to shut myself off from the outside world. Of course before I could talk to them, and spoke to the guards and the people around them. So I talked a lot to them in the beginning. I had to be positive about this film because, the day I said to Wilfried a little bit from outside, I said 'I will start filming', he said 'oh you cannot'. After one year and a half he said, 'no, forget it'. And I stayed calm and I said ,'ok I'll find somebody else'. And he said 'no, no, no film us'.
Aud: how come you chose not to interview the guards?
Dir: I'm not interested int their situation. My film is about them. Every information has to be. I'm not a journalist, I hate objective films, I hate it. I want to make subjective films and I don't want if somebody says, if somebody gives an a, somebody has to give a b - no, I'm not interested in that. It's the spectator who has to make their own story and there are so many.. I'm not interested at all in showing the opinion of everybody.
Aud: Comment on the sound scape. Was it almost all, filmed in the room?
Dir: A little bit composing but the challenge was, how can we reduce the sound because in reality, there is so much sound and so we had to put filters on it to reduce the sound. And so we decided, me and the editor decided, to put some details on it, to make it there. You don't want to be in a bath of sound, you want some little points to point out some feelings. Like the toilet, the water in the pipes, this is re-constructed. it's impossible, you stand there with the mic, it's not always reality but I'm sure it's like... And sometimes I wanted to have this effect of being in their head.
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